Intrada Soundtrack Forum

Both versions can exist. Sometimes even side by side. We put the original 1968 Goldsmith 28-minute album program as a bonus on our expanded release of BANDOLERO long before the method became commonplace.

Sometimes an "album presentation" is simply a selection of highlights, otherwise not containing any particularly creative assembly. Union restrictions may have been a factor, but just in the length, not the creativity. One example most of us probably know is the original 1968 release of PLANET OF THE APES. It's literally just 27 minutes of selections lined up on two sides of a record. Major cues are missing and none of the cues included are creatively edited together. As such, it suffers when compared to an expanded version containing the important missing cues. ("The Hunt" anyone??) And yes, folks, I respect the man and his music and what he prepared in 1968. That's obvious. I just think the original album was assembled without any particular creativity. It's just a sampling, a selection of some highlights. Nothing more.

But other "albums" showcase a composer working hard to assemble his or her music with maximum musical integrity, thinking about shape and architecture and other stuff the film necessarily might not allow. In such cases, literal repeated sections may be dropped, back-to-back chase sequences may be split apart, two short but invaluable cues built from the same material may be combined and certain themes can be re-orchestrated, developed for musicality and recorded just for the album. John Williams loves to do this and I wouldn't argue much with him. Jerry did this with some of his stuff, too: the love theme from INCHON (where otherwise the idea was only briefly touched upon in the score) and --- my all-time favorite piece of music by Goldsmith--- "The Rock" from IN HARM'S WAY was merely an arrangement of the theme in full for the LP but was never intended for nor used in the film. (So much for purists who want exactly what's in the movie the way it was used in the movie. If they ruled the waves, I'd never have gotten my favorite piece of music!!)

But I digress too much. An example of a really creative album where the composer omitted cues un-necessary to the architecture in my opinion is FIRST BLOOD. Yep. One of our own. He knew what he was doing and he loved the score. As such, he removed repeats, (sometimes just a single bar!), crossfaded unrelated cues together to build longer, exciting pieces, changed the order, you name it. A perfect example here: He took the lengthy, seemingly endless snare drum & bass drum passage needed for the movie in the mountain hunting sequence and reduced it to just a few bars for his record. And, in fact, he segued it out of the truck sequence from another part of the film entirely. He built a great new cue out of his own material. We all got a world class record.

Anyway, so there I am putting the entire score together for the first time, in "C&C" sequence, and it worked incredibly well for different reasons. The additional bars added tension and excitement. Suddenly the tiny five-note "Rambo" sequence was introduced in just the right place and subsequently developed with intelligence and design. (Customary for this composer.) It was another listening experience altogether. But not a "better" one. A different one. And it's why I happily restored both the 1982 LP program Jerry intended, and the whole score (he didn't intend) together side by side on our 2-disc package. You can have it both ways!

Yes, people, I love getting complete scores. But - believe it or not - sometimes it's just because I can then go home and actually create my own "album" and know I have all the cues to work with. I'm as big a fan as you guys are of PRINCE OF PERSIA and BATTLE: LOS ANGELES, but I surely don't find them great albums at their current excessive lengths... so I "create" my own presentations in such cases.

So, bottom line for me. If a soundtrack CD is simply 50 little cues all lined up in a row, "complete & chronological", mimicking the sequence in the movie and nothing more, with most of them running about one minute or less... it's probably not gonna be a very good listening experience for me. A monkey could assemble that CD. I'll usually go for the more creative experience. Not always, mind you, I love animals, too. But usually.

I recognize I'm just one voice here and people can be passionate about this stuff. These are just my opinions. This all started because my mom and dad bought me a record to TARAS BULBA to shut me up when I was a kid and they had their friends over... no one knew it would create a monster. And now you folks have built Intrada from a tiny label to... well, a less tiny one anyway. So I do value your input.

Please contribute your thoughts. Really folks. This is a topic that Roger, Joe, Jeff, George, Steve and I have frequently during our weekly status meetings. Even Wendy, our accountant, chimes in sometimes. (And she'd never heard of Jerry Goldsmith before she started working for us.) If she has an opinion on the subject, you people certainly should.

Thanks for (whew!) listening. Your turn.
--Doug

Your FIRST BLOOD example is spot-on, Doug. On the topic of Goldsmith, I'd add PATTON and DAMIEN: OMEN II -- two thoughtfully re-conceived album recordings which I prefer over their complete film incarnations (although I'm very happy to have the option).

Another album program I return to frequently is David Shire's RETURN TO OZ. It works so beautifully ... perhaps a complete version would also work beautifully, but it's hard to envision it being as structurally perfect.

One composer who frustrates me a lot on this point, however, is John Williams. Some of his albums are great -- THE FURY stands out in my mind (that album-only "Epilogue"!!!); I'll take that presentation over the film version any day. But that's an exception to the rule. Nine times out of ten, I'll take a complete and chronological Williams album over the OST presentation. I just can't get my brain around perplexing assemblies like THE PHANTOM MENACE, where humongous chunks of music are repeated wholesale -- even as the score's powerful climax, "Anakin Destroys the Federation Battleship," is omitted entirely. Or KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL, where I felt the impact of the "Jungle Chase" sequence -- an amazing, long-form action suite in its original form -- was significantly muted; and where you don't even hear Marion's theme between the album-opening march and the final scene. But again, it's hard to argue with success ... and Williams certainly has moved albums.

Anyway ... what bothers me most about this debate is the black-or-white thinking that seems to dominate in some circles. On the one hand, you have some who argue that C&C is NEVER the way to go; on the other, it's the ONLY way to go. While I have an admitted tendency to favor C&C (as Doug indicates, that always leaves me the option of producing my OWN ideal album, whereas the reverse is not true), I don't consider this a "one size fits all" question. To my ears, every case is unique ... some scores benefit best from C&C presentation, others are better in smaller, reorganized doses. Sometimes, as Doug indicates, each version has its pros and cons, and which version you listen to depends on your mood. Sometimes, complete scores "feel shorter" to me despite the longer running time, just because they seem to flow and develop more organically (Giacchino's STAR TREK). With other scores, a more succinct version is less likely to overstay its welcome and tire me out (Giacchino's UP).

In the end, I think what I like best is having my cake and eating it too ... presentations like THE MEAN SEASON (which I was fortunate to do the notes for), where you have an intelligent, well-composed "album," but the "extras" are included for those who want them. I think Doug has achieved a pretty good balance with Intrada releases, overall.

You both speak the truth.

What really stuck out, Doug, was when you said that you like getting some complete scores so you can make an album out of them. I thought I was the only one obsessive enough to do that! I love being able to explore everything the score has to offer, and then seeing if I can make a coherent listening experience out of it. I like all the music on FSM's Wrath of Khan release (I really really really do), but the 59-minute program I made out of that is (in my humble opinion) perfect. Another one like this is Alien. The OST arrangement has most of the music I'd want to have on my iPod to listen to whenever - but not all. I included 'Hyper Space' as a bonus track after the main program, because (again, imho) Alien without 'Hyper Sleep' is an unfathomable concept.

As John said, it's great being able to have my cake and eat it too - especially on something like First Blood. Having the whole 45+ minutes (and bonuses!) is fantastic, and I wouldn't get rid of a single second - but the album arrangement went on my iPod, and it's not going anywhere. I still listen to the film version once in a while, but I'm just glad I get to have both.

As for Up... it makes me think of the Varese Deluxe Editions of the Matrix and Scream. The OSTs were severely lacking, and the complete scores are out there in promo form (yeah yeah, I know, but point is, it's not like Stay Tuned where the music was never available in any form). With that in mind, I'm glad Varese created a happy medium - putting on enough music to be satisfying while still creating an album out of it. And again, the rest of the music's out there, so there's no grounds for bitching about missing a 15-second cue. It's a lost art, and I wish it would happen more often. Mars Attacks is another one - whatever the LLL release doesn't have, you can get from the isolated score, so no bellyaching!

So it is with Up - while the promo's contents are nice indeed, the program Giacchino assembled covers most of the bases while being a satisfying listen, so I can't say I feel gipped by it. The hamsters did good on this one.

Keep on doing what you're doing Intrada, coz it's working!

I've enjoyed Intrada's James Horner album releases and occasionally will pass on upgrading albums but generally I'm in the C&C camp. Even if I don't enjoy the entire score I can, as Doug pointed out, create my own album from the archive. Case in point: Roger recently created a thread on North & South Book II and gave a tracklist of his edited program. I agree that listening to an entire N&S box can be a tall order at times (unless you're really in the mood) and agreed with most of Roger's choices but there were a few favourites of mine that didn't make his cut. Fortunately the C&C box allows each of us to create his own ideal program.

The C&C releases also put an end to one particularly frustrating experience of soundtrack listening - buying an album and finding that a piece of music that caught your attention in the film was left off the soundtrack release. I remember being pretty disappointed that one of my favourite moments of the Titanic score was left off the OST album. Luckily it appeared on 'Back to Titanic' in the track 'A Building Panic.' This is why given the choice between an album and a C&C presentation I will almost always opt for the C&C.

The specialty labels have done a great job of attempting to please both camps. Intrada's 'The Album' and 'The Extras' arrangement or the two disc sets with C&C on one disc and album presentation on the other. As a previous poster said, please keep on doing what you're doing. It's working really well.

Thanks so much Doug from your input. Still a novice I never thought of it that way, however now I know.

I'm very happy to own the complete 75min. "Wild Bunch" score, but I wish I hadn't got rid of the album (33mins.), it was such a good listen. If it was re-released I'd buy it. That's the thing about albums, they're made to be a good listening experience.

I apologize in advance for the rambling nature of this post.

I've said it before, I am appreciative of the effort a composer will take to make an album out of 90 mins of music. However not all albums end up working.

As John mentioned, and in my own words, TPM is a mess. But then there are those that work, E.T., Patton, Jaws to name a few.

That being said, while I grew up with Williams' LP to Jaws, it's a wonderfully arranged and recorded album, I always felt it lacked the tension and raw sound of the original tracks. As much as I enjoy Williams' recording of The Fury and I also love the raw energy from the original recording sessions.

Krull is overkill but it's nice to have the option of hearing everything. I still listen to CDs the old fashioned way, I play them. I don't create my own edits on my computer. I come across a cue I don't like or get tired of I hit skip. But that's my preference and I know it doesn't apply to everyone else.

I don't want what amounts to an isolated score, I want all the music the composer recorded in it's original form. If that means he/she created a special cue for the album then I'm for that as well. I'm one of the few who doesn't try to relive the film through music. I listen to it as its own separate entity. In a perfect world I would love what Intrada, and to an extent LaLaLand does, by releasing the original score paired with the album version. I wouldn't even object to the album version presented and the rest of the score put at the end as bonus tracks.

I grew up with the wonderful LPs from the 70's and 80's. I enjoyed them and didn't spend my time griping about missing music but there were times I wished that the extra stuff was available.

I was listening to Jaws 2 the other night and while Williams assembled and excellent album, there were a few moments of music I wish had been included, the little tension filled piece where Brody finds the burnt body in the wreckage and even the little statement of the shark's theme during the final cue as it swings around to charge the electric cable.

I've always felt the labels where archiving all this music, as a listening experience and to preserve its rich history. I'm thankful for what you do and will continue to support Intrada and everyone else if it's something I enjoy listening to. If you feel the original album is the best way then I respect your wishes, if you want to release it all then I won't complain either.

I also agree & enjoy the film & the original album versions on a 2 CD set. If there is a significant change or something like that...

I don't mean to start another topic folks...However there are film version tracks that are better than album versions & vice versa.

Hi Guys! My first post here. I go by Kevin Costigan on the FSM boards. I promise I have only nice things to say.

It's interesting about how a perspective changes. I'm generally someone who is pro C & C, but lately I find myself appreciating some of the "Album" presentations more. A case in point would be the Indiana Jones scores. For me, I always saw having the C & C's as having the freedom to access all the music I wanted to hear. I'm someone that loves the short cues, which as a listening experience overall doesn't fit well. Most of the time when I listen to albums, I listen to a particular cues or handful of cues over and over. Often times, I listen to short phrases over and over. That's just how I work. I'm also a creative person and enjoy some of the scores I like as "temp tracks" for my own ideas. I can get lost in a few bars of music since that's what I like to enjoy sometimes. I see that as more of an interactive experience rather than just a avid listener.

In the case on Indiana Jones, after years of watching the films and having the desire to hear the extra bits that caught my attention, I was thrilled to get the expanded editions. Now that I've heard the extra bits, I find myself wanting to go back a bit. While I wouldn't want to give up my expanded Star Trek 2 for anything, as a whole, the original album is a more enjoyable experience for me. In the end, I'm ecstatic that all this wonderful material is being made available, album presentation or more.

In the end, I'm grateful to have all the music out there so I can do with it what I may. Also, I have to commend Intrada's esthetic choice of creating album presentations with the extras tagged on afterward

Speaking personally, I'm rarely bothered about the running order since I'm not that interested in how it relates to the film (especially with films I haven't seen or don't like). Should all Bond albums start with the gunbarrel? And I'd rather song-score combos were split so I can start the CD at Track 12 or finish it at Track 11 (or wherever). That they're not in chronological order doesn't really matter.

Nor do I believe that every note is vital. I'm not an archivist and I'm not seeking to preserve everything no matter how insignificant. One example is BREAKHEART PASS: what on Earth are those two tiny cues (a fanfare and a cople of guitar strums) doing on the end? They add absolutely nothing. Another is BLACK SUNDAY, which is great up until the source cues start, at which point I stop the CD: if we must have the source cues it is far better that they're tucked away at the end - the stylistic differences between them and the score is often jarring.

But I also think it should be on a case-by-case basis. The expanded Bond albums were mostly a revelation though the running order was all over the place - I know it was a contractual condition and a legal obligation but it seems weird for the end titles to come halfway through the album. Some albums work fine as they are - in the event of an expanded JAWS 2 I doubt I'll bother to upgrade the near-perfect Varese disc. Others, GREMLINS being the obvious, do warrant the expansion as, just like OHMSS and DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER, the existent album is so lacking. Unnecessary duplication is at the other end of the spectrum: that's why I didn't buy the new STAR TREK 3 release. Even if I didn't have the same tracks on the old album I'd be wary about buying a lot of the tracks twice in the new set - once as part of the film tracks and one as part of the album. I did this with LaLa's STAR TREK 5 and the album programme is entirely redundant - in this case. But it doesn't apply to all, particularly with something like THE FURY where it's a completely different recording. I guess there are no absolutes. Some albums are a slog to get through, others leave you wanting more.

Whether I'd elaborate on this or not (and wise things already have been said above!) the bottom line would be: In Doug I trust.

Most of you know that this is a pet subject of mine and also perfectly well what my opinions are. But I'm gonna give the short version anyway, since Doug has created the topic.

In 99% of the cases, I always prefer album arrangements of some sort.

There are some exceptions once in a blue moon where an album holds up pretty well DESPITE being presented C&C. Vince diCola's ROCKY IV is one that comes immediately to mind.

But for the most part, they don't.

I didn't get interested in soundtracks from watching films and noticing the music within. I segued slowly into soundtracks from instrumental electronic music and prog rock "concept albums" (my interest in FILM music, on the other hand, is related to the music as a filmic tool, but has nothing to do with soundtrack listening in my case). When I became seriously interested, C&C didn't really exist (early 90's). So there were actually PLENTY of these film music "concept albums" around. In fact, most soundtracks were that way. I loved that; that was the highlight of my passion.

As Doug said, somewhere along the line (early 2000's?), just as niche labels started to proliferate, it became more important to preserve the music as some sort of archival artifact. That's when it started to lose me, I'm afraid. The fans who started these labels came from a totally different background and approach than me. These were guys who had taped music from their tv screen, and felt the frustration when the music they loved IN THE FILMS weren't on the soundtrack.

To me, however, that has never been an issue. If the album holds together as a listening experience -- with its OWN set of musical logic -- I couldn't care less what was left off. Even if it were an unreleased Beethoven symphony or whatever.

I've always considered album production an ARTFORM, and wish more labels would start to make these concept album programs. Hopefully with the composer's own involvement, but if that's not possible, then I have the utmost trust in the album producers, the ARTISTS, to put a good program together.

OK....so not the "short version", but that's really the gist of it.

In short, I'm with Doug -- although perhaps even a bit more extreme than him in my deep preference for the A&A (arranged & abbreviated) over the C&C.