Intrada Soundtrack Forum

I'm curious. With respect to any given score, how important to you is the actual orchestration itself? Obviously, we all hear and enjoy the basic overall sounds. But what about details that require more attention and - in some cases - even musical training?

Anyway, here are some random illustrations. They're not questions per se. I'm just spotlighting stuff I notice to give out ideas.

Are you attracted to Herrmann's particular creativity with low woodwinds or do you just enjoy his basic overall sound? Do you notice Morricone using the unique resonance of a viola in places where other composers simply write for violin? Do you hear Broughton's rarely-used contrabass trombone during TOMBSTONE or does it just blend in with the rest of the low brass? How about Fielding's signature snare drum followed by a bass drum followed by a cymbal? Craig Safan's stopped piano? Chris Young's melodica?

Or how about Goldsmith's muted trumpets blended with chimes? For that matter, do you even hear the differences between a trumpet's common straight mute, the quieter cup mute and the unique harmon mute? Or to break it down even further, do you notice a difference between the velvet smooth sound of that same harmon mute with the plunger all the way in or the gentle buzz it produces when the plunger is partially extended? How about when its fully extended? When it's removed entirely? When one of those particular muted trumpet sounds is blended with a soprano sax and so on?

Hearing and understanding the millions of colors possible no doubt requires some musical knowledge. Yet anyone can enjoy music without knowing what a 'cor anglais' actually sounds like or whether they're hearing a bass clarinet in the low register or whether it's actually a contrabass clarinet and whatever. None-the-less, many composers work endlessly creating sounds for people who won't always know what to listen for. Do you feel you're losing out on something these guys are trying to say or do the little details even matter to you?
--Doug

My unfortunate total laymanship in terms of music surely endows me with sufficient (lack of) knowledge to reply.


This very lack, however, will obviously also make my answer too vague for my own satisfaction and surely any kind reader.

I cannot identify instruments, nor tell which kind of muting is being applied to a trumpet; I may not even be able to hear the difference.

Yet, I am able to pick some details, and appreciate it, but my inability to go beyond this mere perception makes it difficult to analyze such things and probably also recognize them in other scores.

Liner notes are very interesting to me when they explain such characteristics, up to a certain point; such things as intervals, progressions and whatnots are sadly lost to me.

I love Goldsmith's very idiosyncratic rhythm patterns, and from reading liner notes, I know some are 5/8 or 7/8 rhythms, but I don't remember which is which; I guess if I went back to the notes, listening carefully to the motives, I would be able to remember which is which, but I'm not sure I could identify this correctly in other scores by other composers, especially if it appears not in the percussion but elsewhere in the orchestration.
A similar example: though I am able to recognize a waltz (3/4) when I hear a "traditional" one, I may not pick it up if it's more subtle; for instance, I had not noticed Buck Roger's song/theme was a waltz, and only realized it when I read Stu Phillips' comment on Glen Larson's "country waltz"; then, it appeared shamefully obvious to me, but until then, the overal context had made me oblivious to it.

Besides knowledge, I need practice; I suppose I could improve my skills my spending some time studying carefully scores, by simply reading their liner notes, spotting this and that, comparing it to something that sounds similiar in another score, maybe even making a library of audio samples for reference, ...

Regarding instrumentation, I know I have been more aware of bass guitar since a bassist friend told me about it when speaking of film scores, nearly 15 years ago (gee, time flies); I thus realized and learned it's something that is particularly unobtrusive and seldom featured in the forefront, yet provides as important a background, a spine so to speak, as drum beats.

Regarding composers, I have noticed a few things, but I really lack the vocabulary. At some point, for instance, it struck me that John Williams often had a little "something", a sort of punctuation in the form of an answer from a "background" instrument, after musical phrases. Jurassic Park that may have been the score that made me aware of it-- as you see, it's very hard for me to explain.
The prime example I'm thinking of is "Welcome to Jurassic Park", starting at 4:59; phrases from the theme are played on violin, and little flute "flourishes" reply to each line, marking the overall rhythm of the piece; then, at 5:13, the instrument "families" are reversed, with a wind (clarinet?) carrying the melody and celli providing the punctuation with very short phrases that are totally different from the theme yet do not clash with it.
And then, sometimes, such melodic lines intertwine and exchange places, with the counterpoint prevailing-- now that I have Jurassic Park in my head, I have difficultoes finding an example, but I think it occurs in the "Gremlin Rag" or in the second movie's "Gremlin Credits"

All of this may sound terribly simple, obvious and commonplace to musicians, though.

Here are now two examples of paying attention to, and enjoying, the precise orchestration and not just the overall effect.
As stated in a thread on FSM's board, in which precisely I was inquiring about the exact names of the various instruments used (they are unspecified in the liner notes; I didn't get the list either, though I did get plenty of recommendations of similar scores), I love The Yakuza, and most particularly its opening track, from the very first note on; I love this "mystery" sound (which I first heard in '70's Columbo episodes)-- xylophones, "hanging tubes", triangles, whatever is used.
I also admire Goldsmith's expert layering of instruments, especially his rhythmic layers; I love it when he does this at the beginning of Total Recall: one beat, then another, then another layer; the paradigm certainly is Rambo III's "Preparations", where he spends a full two minutes (starting at 2:26) adding one percussion and rhythmic pattern over another (I don't remember how much I have been able to count-- 6 or 7) yet keeping it all perfectly clear; the instruments and rhythms don't clash but complement each other; then he ads more layers, of a more atmospheric kind. That's something I always enjoy, paying attention to the way it keeps building.

To summarize: my lack of musical skills makes me miss lots of things, but I do pay attention and note some details, and wish I knew more about music.

I'm going to give a short answer: yes, the details matter, and I greatly appreciate you guys pointing out the more interesting bits of orchestration in your liner notes!

Yavar

Very important. I was just listening to score the other day (I forget which) that the orchestrations were way too thin and made the score -- which would have been vastly improved by better, larger orchestration -- sound flimsy and unprofessional.

Good orchestrations, like say those by Jeff Atmajian, add greatly to a score and even little flurishes that may not always be present in the composer's original sketches. Take for example the orchestration of "Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure" versus the orchestration on David Newman's last few scores. I'm not saying his new orchestrator does a bad job, but it lacks the colors and creativity that Atmajian brought -- in fact, Atmajian brings gold to almsot everything he does.

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"Unlike me, many of you have accepted the situation of your imprisonment and will die here like rotten cabbages."
"Everyone votes for a dictator."
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A good orchestrator can work wonders. When I found out that the typical size of Shirley Walker's ensemble for Batman: The Animated Series was around 19 players, I was floored that she got such a full sound out of such a small group. Conversely, she once told an anecdote involving a score with a less-than-accomplished orchestrator, where they had a huge ensemble that they couldn't get to sound "big" enough; they kept throwing additional players at it, but to no avail. She didn't name the score, but it could be any number of them these days. Classical orchestration training is no longer a required skill for film composers. That matters more with some than with others.

I tend to find that the more I learn about the technical side of the music, the more I appreciate the artistry of it. (Conversely, I'll be prone to experience greater disappointment when technical elements are poorly or inadequately handled). I suppose there's a theoretical danger of becoming so caught up in noticing the small details that you lose the ability to just let the music wash over you and respond emotionally. But then, one might think the same thing regarding noticing film music "too much" when viewing a film. Ours is a rarefied passion...

Takis, you may be interested to know that I ahve been putting together a website (unpremiered) devoted to the scores of the first three seasons of B:TAS. I've reached nearly all the composers, though I haven't had a reply from a number of them.

The site features reviews of almsot all the episode scores, correct and missing entries (including uncredited contributions, and some ghostwriting), interviews with the composers, some clips (including the "overture" like un-used piece from "Fire From Olympus; nothing short of greatness) and some more things.


LaLaLand Records is hinting at a summer releasing of possibly some scores from the series. A little too vague at this point, but I am guessing volumes like "Amazing Stories".

_________________
"Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself"
"Unlike me, many of you have accepted the situation of your imprisonment and will die here like rotten cabbages."
"Everyone votes for a dictator."
THE PRISONER

I'm not a musican myself, but I do enjoy lots of music, and I'd have to agree with Doug and Olivier. Orchestration is sometimes part of my fascination for some works: Ravel's Daphnis et Chloé and Ma Mère l'Oye, most of Edgar Varèse's works, Stravinsky's Greek ballets.

Orchestration is paramount as far as film scores are concerned. Take Chinatown for instance: the whole orchestral sound (four pianos, four harps, trumpet, percussion and strings) is genius because it makes a comment on the storyline: harps refer to the water, an essential plotline in the movie. The solo trumpet provides the noirish aspect. But piano, percussions and avant garde techniques used by Goldsmith allow the film to be much more than a simple homage to Film Noir. I've always enjoyed the way Goldsmith most of the times came up with exotic instruments: cowbells in Psycho II, bass slide whistle in Planet of the Apes, guiro in Chinatown, stainless steel mixing bowls in The Challenge, water chimes in The Illustrated Man, and of course the blaster beam in Star Trek the Motion Picture. There always was a sense of Jerry having fun with Emil Richards' collection. But these finds always made sense with the rest of the orchestra.

Images is another score where orchestration is the score's main attraction. I don't think there's ever been another score quite like this one. John Williams gave Stockhausen and Peter Mawxell Davies a run for their money!

Then there are wonderful Horner scores such as The Land Before Time, Willow and An American Tail, where James Horner provided kids with a crash course in beautiful, colorful orchestrations. The cue Whispering winds in TLBT is just incredibly beautiful: everything is well balanced, from the Debussy inspired, hushed opening, recalling one movement from Debussy's Nocturnes to the more Russian inspired violence when the T-rex attacks the mother. Quite sophisticated music for what amounts to little more than kiddie fare (but great fare, that is)...

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Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself, but talent instantly recognizes genius
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

Yes it is important.

When I first heard the score to the mini-series Pandora`s Clock (starring Richard Dean Anderson among others) I thought that the music sounded very James Horner-ish but the music was composed by Don Davis. As some of you might know Mr. Davis have worked as an orchestrator to Mr. Horner so that explains a lot about the sound.

Strangely enough even if Davis' work to this mini-series sounded very Horner-ish I have to admit that it is my favorite among Davis' scores and yes I think that this score surpasses even The Matrix.

Hello Doug and all,

I absolutely love the detail about all the instruments and all the detail given to the tracks using instrumental terminology!!!

One thing that I don't like though is when a reviewer just goes on about how great two people work together, and just go on and on and on, and no one learns anything about the film and film score, they just learn that two people had a great working relationship, except, that is all they learn, or did they learn anything???

I do love it, however, when a soundtrack is given a technical history run down, to do with the studio, the director, the composer, and how the film eventually came together, such as Varese Sarabande's release of DIE HARD by Michael Kamen. Although, I don't think that film scores in more recent times have it as hard as they did back then, maybe I am wrong, but the ideas for studios to go in certain directions of films seemed more risky back then, prior to the 1990s, and lots of companies don't exist, or have changed hands since.

I admire soundtracks that give a list of the whole orchestra, detailing all the instruments, performers, and conductors, and whoever is involved, such as LA-LA LAND Records GODZILLA by David Arnold, and INTRADA's AMAZING STORIES by many great composers. (By the way, out of interest (This might sound like a dumb question, but I would rather ask than wonder for the rest of my life!), what is a COPYIST? Is that a person who copy's the film score for each musician??)

Sometimes when I listen to soundtracks, I am fascinated by what instument is making some certain sound, although a lot of times I wouldn't have a clue of where to get that information from, or even where to start looking!

I have to say that I loved reading through the notes of INTRADA's ALIEN, THE WIND AND THE LION & BABY: SECRET OF THE LOST LEGEND all by Jerry Goldsmith. When I first read the notes to the above three, while listening to them, I come to this other world, where I cannot quite understand everything that I read, but I am never-the-less fasinated by all the detail that can go into describing a track and all the beats and notes that the instruments (musically) make. It is like I am reading into what gives life to the film itself, and it does give film a life, without music there is only an image, but one can only understand what is being written about when they listen, but the two should be hand-in-hand.

INTRADA have a great team of people, as do a few other soundtrack labels.

Not to mention any names/titles here, but I have come across a few soundtracks that when I read the notes, I feel like I am reading an essay from someone who either doesn't know anything about the composer and or film, or has maybe only seen the film in question once, and hasn't listened to the music by itself, away from the film, and the reviewer doesn't know anything about music and/or who relates the film to films that are current (20 or so years later) and not that relevant to the film in question, and no one profits from the history/knowedge that is out there that some other person might know and be able to share.

Doug, I love it how you include notes at the end of some of your soundtrack releases, for example: A NOTE FROM THE EXEC in the release of ALIEN, giving us readers/listeners a slice of the composers life and struggles during his recording sessions.......

!!!KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!!

The thing I like about a lot of old orchestral scores is that you do get some air around the instruments & a lot of subtlety, it's not one big sludge of orchestral sound - a good tune helps too! Al.

From a timbral perspective, great orchestration -- the adroit selection, blending and juxtaposing of the various instruments -- is what really brings the music alive.

Psycho is a good case in point -- the timbre of a string orchestra (and the musicians playing with no vibrato, while using their mutes) is what gives the score (and consequently the film) much of its character. I know most people would not be able to identify what is unique about the score; nevertheless they pick up on its effect (if only subliminally).

Further on the topic of orchestration, the composer/orchestrator relationship is one that seems perpetually misunderstood by people. I find that there are people who think that the orchestrator is a kind of "co-writer". Others prefer to believe that the orchestrator is a mere figurehead. Still others will point to the orchestrator credit as "proof" that the composer is the figurehead. The truth is all three scenarios can be true, as it varies from composer to composer.

When I worked on the Heavy Metal notes for FSM, we had access to Elmer Bernstein's and David Spear's original sketches, which provided some remarkable insight in Elmer Bernstein's relationship with his orchestrators. The early cues (such as the "Den" segment) were pretty detailed. As the score progresses (and the deadline looms), the details literally get more "sketchy".

Elmer Bernstein was himself quite adept in orchestration, and able to instruct his orchestrators regarding what he wanted (in Heavy Metal his instructions were partly set down in musical notation, and partly verbal). He was clear about the use of specialized instruments (like the ondes Martinot) yet also gave the orchestrators room to use their own initiative. And of course David Spear provided a few cues based on Bernstein's themes.

This method is not uncommon, but neither is it necessarily indicative of every situation either. Even Bernstein himself orchestrated his scores all by himself when time permitted.

_________________
Karl Morton IV

"Enjoy every sandwich."
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