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 Post subject: Poltergeist II: Complete & Remastered!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:31 am 
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Next Monday we can pre-order new CD from Kritzerland - Poltergeist II.
Quote from Mr. Kimmel:

Quote:
We've gone back to the original three-track mixes so we didn't have to deal with the previous CDs various EQs, none of which were to my liking and the last of which is mastered so hot as to defy credulity. The four missing short cues are there. No alternates, but we are including bonus tracks of two cues that appear without choir in the film (they were scored to have the choir and appear that way in the main program - but we have the instrumental-only versions in the bonus section) along with some other odds and ends that are fun. Very excited about this one and yes, it's more than 1000 and less than 2000 - given it's prior release history I wasn't comfortable with 2000, whereas I was with 1500, which I think will move just fine. At 2000 I'd have to read the endless litany of "I'm fine with the Varese" - you know what I mean.


So, who will upgrade their old versions, or (like me) buy their first and last definite copy of another good score from Maestro Goldsmith?

_________________
My wish-list at this moment: any Barry score, PSYСHO, WHO FRAMED ROGER RABBIT (complete, of course), SPY HARD.
Not much, really?


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 Post subject: Re: Poltergeist II: Complete & Remastered!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:50 am 
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I think it is wonderful that so many excellent film scores get re-released and do not remain OOP forever once they are gone. POLTERGEIST II is a very good score that deserves to remain available.

I do own the original LP of POLTERGEIST II as well as the expanded Varese edition, which I am very happy with, so I don't really think I will re-buy the score right now. I am not sure what Bruce Kimmel means by " mastered so hot as to defy credulity", I never had any particular issue with the mastering of POLTERGEIST II, but obviously, his sensibilities led him to approach the mastering from a different perspective. It would be interesting to hear the two in comparison.


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 Post subject: Re: Poltergeist II: Complete & Remastered!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:51 am 
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Quote:
At 2000 I'd have to read the endless litany of "I'm fine with the Varese"

I'm fine with the Varèse, even at 1500 ! :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Poltergeist II: Complete & Remastered!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:36 am 
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Nicolai P. Zwar wrote:
I think it is wonderful that so many excellent film scores get re-released and do not remain OOP forever once they are gone. POLTERGEIST II is a very good score that deserves to remain available.

I do own the original LP of POLTERGEIST II as well as the expanded Varese edition, which I am very happy with, so I don't really think I will re-buy the score right now. I am not sure what Bruce Kimmel means by " mastered so hot as to defy credulity", I never had any particular issue with the mastering of POLTERGEIST II, but obviously, his sensibilities led him to approach the mastering from a different perspective. It would be interesting to hear the two in comparison.


I never picked up the Varese because I thought our expanded version was fine (it's never been my favorite score...but yes Goldsmith's program for our original release was crazy. Even with the 30 minute AFM restriction, he choose to avoid any of the action music!). The too hot doesn't surprise me, as Varese has been pumping the levels for a while. The RUNAWAY deluxe addition is really hot too...I prefer the sound of their first release. I just didn't realize they were doing this going back so far. Am I reading right that this new release is from the analog masters? Previous releases were from the digital masters (I wonder if Varese forgot to return them to MGM!). Although 1/2" have pretty good sound, if I'm interpreting the source right. Always a good score to keep in print especially for those that wanted everything.


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 Post subject: Re: Poltergeist II: Complete & Remastered!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:24 am 
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Roger Feigelson wrote:

I never picked up the Varese because I thought our expanded version was fine (it's never been my favorite score...but yes Goldsmith's program for our original release was crazy. Even with the 30 minute AFM restriction, he choose to avoid any of the action music!).



I missed out on the expanded Intrada release, but the original LP release was just 5 tracks and less than half of the score.
I always liked the music for POLTERGEIST II. It is not in the same league as POLTERGEIST, but then, few scores are. :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Poltergeist II: Complete & Remastered!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:32 am 
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Location: Right underneath that cloud that looks like a rabbit... no, wait, it looks more like a cow now...
In any case, I still have the original Intrada LP release, bought back in the day when it was released. :-)
It may have been my first Intrada release, I'm not sure. :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Poltergeist II: Complete & Remastered!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:00 am 
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Nicolai P. Zwar wrote:
I do own the original LP of POLTERGEIST II as well as the expanded Varese edition, which I am very happy with, so I don't really think I will re-buy the score right now. I am not sure what Bruce Kimmel means by " mastered so hot as to defy credulity", I never had any particular issue with the mastering of POLTERGEIST II, but obviously, his sensibilities led him to approach the mastering from a different perspective. It would be interesting to hear the two in comparison.

Some tracks on the Varese deluxe edition have good dynamic range, while some others do have considerably squashed dynamics and are indeed brickwalled. "They're Back" is the biggest offender. As Roger mentioned, hot mastering is fairly common for Varese releases.

I've never been bothered enough by the score itself to care in this case.


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 Post subject: Re: Poltergeist II: Complete & Remastered!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:29 am 
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T. Newman Fan wrote:
Nicolai P. Zwar wrote:
I do own the original LP of POLTERGEIST II as well as the expanded Varese edition, which I am very happy with, so I don't really think I will re-buy the score right now. I am not sure what Bruce Kimmel means by " mastered so hot as to defy credulity", I never had any particular issue with the mastering of POLTERGEIST II, but obviously, his sensibilities led him to approach the mastering from a different perspective. It would be interesting to hear the two in comparison.

Some tracks on the Varese deluxe edition have good dynamic range, while some others do have considerably squashed dynamics and are indeed brickwalled. "They're Back" is the biggest offender. As Roger mentioned, hot mastering is fairly common for Varese releases.

I've never been bothered enough by the score itself to care in this case.


Yeah, if you have the Varese you'll want Bruce's new version.


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 Post subject: Re: Poltergeist II: Complete & Remastered!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:54 am 
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If I remember correctly, and Doug would know better...I think Goldsmith was not in favor of using the chorus. Really not in favor...which is one of the reasons he did not include any of it on the original album. And I think Botnick added the telephone ringing when they made the album...I think it was his idea, not Goldsmith's. But then you get used to it and it sounds weird without it.


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 Post subject: Re: Poltergeist II: Complete & Remastered!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:04 pm 
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Roger Feigelson wrote:
If I remember correctly, and Doug would know better...I think Goldsmith was not in favor of using the chorus. Really not in favor...which is one of the reasons he did not include any of it on the original album. And I think Botnick added the telephone ringing when they made the album...I think it was his idea, not Goldsmith's. But then you get used to it and it sounds weird without it.


Gah! Of course there's chorus on the original album. Just not the big choral action cues. That's what I meant.


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 Post subject: Re: Poltergeist II: Complete & Remastered!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:32 pm 
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So Roger, if we want the best edition possible, it was Intrada's expanded one. Digital sound without the "hot mastering" you're talking about... ^^


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 Post subject: Re: Poltergeist II: Complete & Remastered!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:39 pm 
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One big thing to keep in mind, and this we know from being the original label to finance the project back in 1986. The three-channel mixes for Poltergeist II were NOT designed for true stereo listening but made for the Dolby four-channel film prints. On this title, the center channel was mixed specifically with balancing underneath dialog. As such, instruments were positioned in that region separately from where they were in the proper stereo listening mixes. Re-mastering these mixes can address lots of audio issues for today's marketplace BUT can not alter the intentions of them being made to accommodate dialog in Dolby presentations. We already went through all of this with both Goldsmith and Bruce Botnick when we made the original album, one of the first digital soundtracks to hit the then-new CD marketplace, and again when we put together our first expanded release. Goldsmith specifically stated the mixes for the film presentations altered the violas, woodwinds, percussion and some of the electronics considerably and said they were not designed for listening apart from the dialog because they would phase improperly.

While there is warmth to the analog three-channel elements, the instrumental positioning is out of kilter with the actual two-track digital mixes Botnick created. Both he and Goldsmith preferred the digital two-track sources (Sony PCM format) because they reflected what the orchestra spread was intended to be. Though it was then state-of-the-art, the Poltergeist II recording has never been my favorite in terms of audio, and hot and brittle is a good way to describe the digital sources. However, the correct stereo imaging and spread of the true stereo mixes is certainly an important consideration and trumps warmth for me.

If the 1/2" three-channel tapes were all that survived, using them would be a necessity. But the true stereo PCM masters do exist. When we decided to delete the release, we sent the masters to Varese so they could do their own version.

I'll look forward to this upcoming new version and probably enjoy it just fine. Bruce Kimmel can work wonders with the audio on his albums. But that said, my personal preference will still be the true stereo mixes Goldsmith and Botnick created.
--Doug


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 Post subject: Re: Poltergeist II: Complete & Remastered!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:52 pm 
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Anakin McFly wrote:
So Roger, if we want the best edition possible, it was Intrada's expanded one. Digital sound without the "hot mastering" you're talking about... ^^


That's a value-based question. I don't need complete versions and think the Intrada expanded edition nails the representation. I have no issue with the sound. However, it is long gone. I did not pick up the Varese because I didn't need more music and now I learn it's mastering is crazy. So if you like the Intrada expanded edition, you're set. If you don't have it or like complete scores and want great sound, get the Kritzerland. Sounds like the Varese issue is the loser in the batch!


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 Post subject: Re: Poltergeist II: Complete & Remastered!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:27 pm 
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Intrada's expanded CD can still be found on the secondary market though. I think I'll stand with Doug with the digital master since it's the true stereo mix. Why not using the analog sources to create a 3.0 Blu-Ray Pure Audio Disc ? Just my 2 cents... ^^

By the way, this is one of my favorite Goldsmith's score (crazier - on the electronic side - than the first episode) and I'm happy people will be able to discover it once more with this new CD !


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 Post subject: Re: Poltergeist II: Complete & Remastered!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:44 pm 
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Douglass Fake wrote:
One big thing to keep in mind, and this we know from being the original label to finance the project back in 1986. The three-channel mixes for Poltergeist II were NOT designed for true stereo listening but made for the Dolby four-channel film prints. On this title, the center channel was mixed specifically with balancing underneath dialog. As such, instruments were positioned in that region separately from where they were in the proper stereo listening mixes. Re-mastering these mixes can address lots of audio issues for today's marketplace BUT can not alter the intentions of them being made to accommodate dialog in Dolby presentations. We already went through all of this with both Goldsmith and Bruce Botnick when we made the original album, one of the first digital soundtracks to hit the then-new CD marketplace, and again when we put together our first expanded release. Goldsmith specifically stated the mixes for the film presentations altered the violas, woodwinds, percussion and some of the electronics considerably and said they were not designed for listening apart from the dialog because they would phase improperly.

While there is warmth to the analog three-channel elements, the instrumental positioning is out of kilter with the actual two-track digital mixes Botnick created. Both he and Goldsmith preferred the digital two-track sources (Sony PCM format) because they reflected what the orchestra spread was intended to be. Though it was then state-of-the-art, the Poltergeist II recording has never been my favorite in terms of audio, and hot and brittle is a good way to describe the digital sources. However, the correct stereo imaging and spread of the true stereo mixes is certainly an important consideration and trumps warmth for me.

If the 1/2" three-channel tapes were all that survived, using them would be a necessity. But the true stereo PCM masters do exist. When we decided to delete the release, we sent the masters to Varese so they could do their own version.

I'll look forward to this upcoming new version and probably enjoy it just fine. Bruce Kimmel can work wonders with the audio on his albums. But that said, my personal preference will still be the true stereo mixes Goldsmith and Botnick created.
--Doug


Let me be as nice as I can be here and believe me, I'm biting my tongue so hard that it's bleeding :) First of all, Goldsmith did the three-channel mixdowns and they sound AMAZING and there is nothing funky or incorrect about the orchestra placement and they are, of course, true stereo, and I would posit that Mr. Fake has never even heard them. And yes, we chose the half-inch analogue because the digital sounds like crap. I had no interest whatsoever in replicating any of the previous releases - why would I? We have the digital two-track mixes and I don't need them from the PCM because I have - wait for it - the Intrada and the Varese releases and if I wanted to use them I would, but I don't so I'm not. Furthermore, the stereo mixes Goldsmith and Botnick created (mostly Botnick) don't really reflect the music as heard in the film, so there's that. Furthermore, there is more orchestral detail on the half-inches and one hears more of certain bits of orchestration and let me tell you I'm all for that. Furthermore, there is so much awful reverb wash on the choir that it affects the orchestra, which is already plenty wet in the room and it all just becomes mush, IMO. But, if anyone is concerned by all means keep the shorter Intrada version - I'm afraid that I'd have to disagree that the material added to the Varese is inconsequential and I'd further disagree that even the four short new tracks we have are inconsequential, and then to get the film versions of the two cues that play without choir in the film as bonus stuff, plus some other fun bonus stuff, including one alternate we found - well, it's two CDs and at 19.98 if this were being released by someone else, say Intrada, I'd snap it up instantly. In fact, my feeling is that if this were being released by Intrada they'd be trumpeting all the extras and lambasting Varese for not making it complete in the first place.

Now, if we're going to go down this road, which is a road that's not really necessary, maybe we should discuss Dressed to Kill. Shall we do that? I'm happy to oblige and go into great detail

I now return you to Intradaland.

Love and kisses,
bk


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