Intrada Soundtrack Forum

Hello all.

I'm a first time poster, long time customer and subscriber to Intrada.

Recentlly I picked up Twilight Time's limited Blu-ray release of Wolfgang Petersen's, "Enemy Mine" (1985); particulary because I was very excited to listen to the isolated score audio track of Maurice Jarre's amazing music that's provided on the disc. Only, to my surprise, it's not really isolated, but more a music and effects track, with explosions, background noise, and even some Drac dialogue included. It's actually kinda fun to listen to some of these sounds you wouldn't normally pick up on from the regular audio of the film. But what's bothersome to me is how these sounds tend to overlap (at times) with the music on the track. I would have prefered the music to be kept completely isolated.

So I decided to e-mail Ed, over at Twilight Time, about this, hoping he might know something more. He got back to me right away with a very simple, yet effective, response:

"They did not have the masters for the score only so they did it this way" - Ed

I couldn't help but wonder, after reading this, if that meant a fully remastered/expanded score on CD in the near future was out of the question because the score-only masters were missing or unavailable? I absolutely adore this music and consider it one of the best of Mr. Jarre's career from that era ("Witness," "Dead Poets Society," & "Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome" being some of the others). Now I'm worried we'll never get to fully appreciate this lovely score in all it's wondrous glory.

Is all hope lost?

Hello, Alan. I too am a subscriber but haven't yet posted.

I put together the track on Enemy Mine (along with all the other Twilight Time score tracks). If you listen very carefully to the track and in its entirety you will find that the music is clean where we had it and that there is a good deal more of it than was on the soundtrack album. The music/effects track (created for foreign language versions of a film) was used for the sections where we didn't have the music and I tweaked it to bring it out a bit. It seems that there was a late re-scoring session and that those cues are the missing ones.

We decided - as we sometimes do - to run the "M&E" track throughout the film because it gives us something interesting to include rather than just going to silence. Occasionally there is very slight overlap getting into and out of the music so that it is done gracefully. At other times you'll notice that if the space between music cues is brief I will keep it silent in between. The tracks are put together with great care and the purpose is to make a polished track that is interesting on its own, not to provide a soundtrack album on a Blu-Ray. I won't intentionally spoil music if we have it to present, but the track is meant to be a bonus feature that allows the viewer to hear the music in sync with the picture to enhance their appreciation of the movie and how the music works.

With the newly found material to add, and in a different quality from the original album, an expanded edition of the score is conceivable, but unfortunately it would not be complete.

Mike Matessino

Thanks for the retrospective Mike. I find the archival musings in between the cues to be quite interesting and fun. Looking forward to the ENEMY MINE blu ray dvd myself. I also enjoyed the same on the Herrmann dvd such as JOURNEY TO THE CENTER OF THE EARTH and THE EGYPTIAN. I remember the extra score tracks on the SUPERMAN The movie blu ray set which also had the archival effects before the cues started (sans the sfx) but don't recall hearing those within that isolated score track.

We're talking about two different things here... the original post was about the sound effects from the film itself filling in the space between music cues. What you're referring to is the stage ambience/chat and slates, which we also include when we are able to do so, usually with Fox titles. In addition to offering something you don't get on a soundtrack album apart from occasional bonus tracks, the benefit of having those on an isolated score track is that it alerts you that music is about to begin and you can therefore take note of how the movie was spotted.

Mike

Hello Mike,

Thank you for taking the time and energy to personally respond to my first post on this forum. I consider it an honor and a privilege to speak with the person who actually worked on the isolated score track for the "Enemy Mine" Blu-ray.

Let me also add that although I was disappointed about the overlapping of music and effects, during parts of the film, this was not, in any way, a critique on the fine work that you contributed for this release. If access to the missing cues were available, I'm sure you would have used them. And yes, you're correct, the score is clean a great deal throughout the movie. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. The effects only overlap with the score at certain periods, like during the initial space battle. And as I mentioned before, it was fun listening to these effects more clearly on this track (as opposed to complete silence where no music was used) since you can't hear or appreciate them as well on the normal audio track.

I find it very interesting that the missing score-only cues are from a late re-scoring session. Makes me wonder if there are any scoring masters available with unused music for the film that were replaced by this late session? Or perhaps these scenes simply did not include music the first time around and Mr. Petersen decided, at the last minute, that they needed some? It's fascinating to me either way.

I understand what you're saying regarding the purpose of an isolated score and how it's not meant to provide a soundtrack album on a Blu-ray. Sometimes they do that anyway, if only unintentionally (the isolated score for John Carpenter's "Big Trouble In Little China", on Blu-ray, certainly comes to mind), but because there's currently no complete CD counterpart for "Enemy Mine," and the old Varese release is incomplete, out of print, and now has sub par sound quality when comparing it to today's standards, it only makes the isolated score on this Blu-ray release that much more important. (Elliot Goldenthal's isolated score for "Alien 3", on Blu-ray, is another perfect example.)

Your words definitely give me hope that a remastered/expanded CD release is still a possibility (and something hopefully Intrada, themselves, can have a chance to work on), though it is still sad and disappointing that it will not be complete because the re-scoring session masters are missing. (Maybe they'll turn up some day?) But, again, I thank you kindly for being so gracious and taking the time to share so much insightful information. I greatly and whole-heartedly appreciate it. Thanks again.

Alan1

PS - Speaking of John Carpenter, I'm quite looking forward to your work on the isolated score for Twilight Time's Blu-ray release of "Christine" next year. If you can comment at all (and I'll completely understand if you can't) I was wondering if that score would be completely isolated or if it too will also contain effects or even some of the classic rock songs? With so many expanded releases of Carpenter's scores already available on CD, it's surprising to me that "Christine" is still not among them.

Thanks for your nice comments, Alan. There have been a number of releases over the years that list "isolated music" as feature and it turns out to be a potted stem, yet those didn't seem to generate any complaints. It was, in fact, a potted stem that we had on Alien 3 (in 5.1) and I took the time, as I always do, to "un-pot" the levels so that they are a bit more even. I even put in a few bits from the soundtrack album where the music had been dialed out in the film (upmixed to 5.1).

Naturally Big Trouble in Little China was a comprehensive track since I used the same material (and did it around the same time) as the La-La Land CD release.

I have what appears to be an LCR music source on Christine but I usually don't do anything with the material until I have a picture master and that has not gotten to me yet.

Mike

mxmx, nice to hear you about the 5.1 isolated tracks ! I'm a big fan of these tracks and I always try to convert those to DTS CD or DVD-Audio for my personal listening confort.

Why do you think we haven't had our beloved film scores released on DTS CDs (the easier way to listen to a 5.1 music with a simple DVD player) or DVD-A in the late 90's early 2000's containing 5.1 mix of film scores. I understand SACD has been a very confidential format that couldn't permit to release major titles every time, but the DTS CD and DVD-A was readable on any DVD player (even if the DVD-A highest bitrate track wasn't). They did release 5.1 isolated music tracks on DVD-Video but so rarely on DVD-A (I can only think of A.I. and the LOTR trilogy).

And now the same happens with Blu-Ray Pure Audio discs. People can read the format with a now more common Blu-Ray Player, but no one is releasing music on that format ! And they still release isolated tracks on Blu-Ray Video though...

Has mp3 killed the desire to release new audio physical formats other than the CD ? We ALL have the players, but we don't have the discs...

The people that now drive the music business, such as it now is, seem content with mp3 downloads and only one headphone in the ear. The hi-end multi-track formats were not embraced by the pop market so there is little motivation for anyone to go to the expense of producing catalog soundtracks that way. I personally believe that as long as human beings have two ears we're not going to see anything beyond stereo widely embraced because that format lends itself to versatility and portability and has the benefit of being long established.

Mike

It's a pity that the specialized film music labels follow that simplistic "two ears=stereo" track as well like the majors. Varèse has been disappointed by the poor success of their rare SACD releases (of course, no one had the player, including me). But now that we have the Blu-Ray, I would have thought someone would try to take the road... But no.

Some people would buy an Audio Blu-Ray just like a CD and would listen to it on stereo (but with a much higher LPCM quality, even with an analogic connection). Besides, with the “mShuttle” technology: if your (profile 2.0) Blu-ray player is connected to your home network, you can use the browser application on your computer to access portable copies of the songs residing on the Pure Audio Blu-ray disc in your player.

And Twilight manages to sell those Blu-Rays just for the isolated track... So why people wouldn't buy Audio Blu-Ray discs ?

I'm sure there are a few people who buy those Twilight releases just for the audio track, but I sincerely doubt 3,000 of them do. Producing a multi-channel high resolution disc is more expensive, and thus the disc would have to sell for more. Blu-Ray players are hardly ubiquitous, even now (unlike CD players), and they need to be connected to a high-end stereo system to be properly appreciated. So only a subsection of the already small fan-base for film scores would be interested.

I do have a Blu-Ray player and a half-decent audio system, and I have a love for film scores (I have about 3,500 soundtracks). But I also have a family, so it's rare that I can crank up the stereo. Would I buy Audio Blu-Rays of film scores? No. Maybe for two or three of my absolute favorite scores, I'd consider it. But in general, no, it would not be worth it to me. I don't think that high resolution in general works for most people's lives. My best friend is an opera fanatic -- his opera CDs are his passion. But he lives in an apartment, and most days he simply can't play his CDs loudly. Blu-Rays of his operas would be a waste. I think many people are in similar situations.

To answer your question, I'm sure people would buy Audio Blu-Ray discs. But would enough buy them to merit the cost? I sincerely doubt it. Just my opinion.

I'm myself spending much time producing DTS CDs and DVD-A for my own pleasure. I don't know how much money we're talking about, but I guess that if remastering and producing CDs of film music for 1200, 1500 or 3000 people in the world can be profitable for everyone, it should go the same for Blu-rays...