Intrada Soundtrack Forum

Feedback wanted. I'm curious about your thoughts on sequencing. I refer to collector-oriented soundtracks, not mass-market stuff with wider audiences in mind.

Should every cue play on the CD in the order it appears in the film, including source cues, songs, random bits, whatever? Obviously this can break up musical continuity. On the other hand, sometimes the song or odd source cue is actually an integral part of the musical structure. Also, do you apply the same rules when the source music is by the respective composer vs. material by someone else written for another medium? Or should these all be relegated to a "bonus tracks" section?

Lest you think I have no opinion, here's my two cents. I find albums with everything in picture order, including source music, to be a challenge to enjoy. I'd love to play stuff like Steiner's "Battle Cry" but the album's more like just a souvenir of the movie. It's work to find the Steiner music. I'd prefer the score to play as one program and the other stuff to play as another. I understand completeists so I wouldn't lose the extra stuff, I'd just prefer it to come bundled at the end or something.

Your thoughts?
--Doug

I'm with you Doug - getting through both discs of SAE's NIGHT AND THE CITY (Frankel/Waxman) with ALL that bloody source music hurts the experience - yet, if you took all that away, the score portions would be relatively brief.....

Although to play devil's advocate, I like Schifrin/Barry source cues in the middle of their respective scores....hmmmm

For me, there is really no way to generalize because it depends on how the music works.

If the song/source music is an integral part of the narrative, then leave it where it originally belongs to but at least give me the option to switch the track because not always do I want to listen to a whole score including source stuff, so it's really annoying to sit through a long track that switches between source and underscore. Best example I can think of is FSMs mutiny on the bounty. The hawaiian source music and songs are often merged with underscore into long tracks that i can't skip so easily without loosing some essential underscore moments.

If song/source stuff have no importance for the films dramatic developments then it is okay to put that stuff at the end as a separate presentation.

All that applies when the score and song was composed by the same person. If it is just a random collection of various artists songs they usually have no real connection to each other anyways so I don't care about their order as long as they don't interfer with the development of the original score material, so just put them at the end as bonus tracks or whatever.

I'm here for the excitement or drama. Source cues almost always pull me out in a bad way. Even when the source music is integral like in Vangelis' "The Bounty" or Fielding's "The Wild Bunch", I enjoy it but I would actually prefer it to be isolated to the end of the disc.

I, too, think it depends on the source cues in question.
Most James Bond or Star Wars source cues tend to blend in with the rest of the score for instance.
Other source cues, which clash with the score itself are better placed at the end of the disc.
For me it also depends on whether you have a decent 'bonus' section on the disc. Putting one source cue in the end after the end titles (which would otherwise round off the album) is a bit disturbing I think. If it's possible, I like to have a decent opening and closing of the bonus section as well if applicable (like alternate main and end titles, or a suite of a theme) - so source cues can fit in there.

This is how I nearly always do it. There are a few cases where I prefer the album arrangement, but mostly I go for this:

- First, comes the complete score, as written for the film. That means the final revisions of each cue (but no tracked music - I try and make it the final version that the composer had in mind). I don't like CDs to start with "theme" tracks or concert suites (unless it's the main title), since this can sometimes damage the effect of the score - a good example is The Omen - I find that the full version of "Ave Satani" is out of place at the start of the album, since I like the way Goldsmith hints at it, building it up throughout the score, getting more and more dramatic until it reaches the limit in "The Altar". But I digress. A main title song (if it's part of the score) will go in the place it appears in the film. So the Bond songs go where they should, after the pre-credits music.

- Next, comes source music, in the order that it appears in the film (or rather, the order it was intended to appear in the film). Unless it is an absolutely essential and integral part of the score (like "Fiona's Death" in Thunderball where it starts off as source music, but the orchestra joins in and it gradually becomes a score cue - you have to see the scene in the film to know what I'm talking about here), I don't like to include them. I feel, for example in Superman the Movie, that "Luthor's Luau" interupts the score after "Super Resces" - I prefer to go straight from that to "The Terrace".

- Next come alternates, in film order - i.e. the order that they would have been, had they been used in the score. By that I mean literally versions of cues (not album tracks or concert suites). In the rare case where we have the alternate version of a cue but NOT the film version, I sequence the alternate as a film cue.

- Next come album tracks and concert suites. I tend to sequence these into a logical order, it depends on the score.

- Finally comes anything else that doesn't fit into any of the other sections.


So for example my custom Superman the Movie album in iTunes goes like this:

Complete Score
1. Prelude and Main Title March (a composite of several cues, but this is what Williams finally intended)
2. The Planet Krypton
3. Destruction of Krypton
4. Star Ship Escapes
5. The Trip to Earth
6. Growing Up
7. The Death of Jonathan Kent
8. Leaving Home
9. The Fortress of Solitude
10. Welcome to Metropolis
11. Lex Luthor's Lair
12. The Big Rescue
13. Super Crime Fighter
14. Super Rescues
15. The Terrace
16. The Flying Sequence
17. Lois and Clark
18. The Crime of the Century
19. Sonic Greeting
20. Misguided Missiles and Kryptonite
21. Chasing Rockets
22. Superfeats
23. Super Dam and Finding Lois
24. Turning Back the World
25. Finale and End Title March
26. Love Theme from Superman (technically an album track, but I've always considered it a part of the score, since it was tracked into the end credits)

Source Music
27. Luthor's Luau

Alternates
28. Main Title March (alternate)
29. The Planet Krypton (alternate)
30. The Flying Sequence (alternate) [this is the instrumental pop version]

Album Tracks
31. Theme from Superman [works as a sort of Main Title]
32. The Flying Sequence / Can You Read My Mind [as it appeared on the original album, with Lois' vocal]
33. The March of the Villains [placed here because I don't want two consecutive "Flying Sequence" cues!]
34. Can You Read My Mind? (alternate - vocal version) [sort of an album alternate - I consider the "album tracks" section to be a mini-album of its own, so naturally alternates go at the end]

Other Tracks
35. Superman March [the full version that was not recorded to picture - so it's not a score cue, but it's not an album cue either. It seems to be a good end for the album]



Damn, I feel so geeky now.

In most cases, the music is better served if dramatic scoring and obvious source cues are separated, especially when the source cues weren't written by the composer. Two examples to consider:

CBS/Sony's expanded release of The Blue Max grouped together the source cues at the end. This made sense because there really was no connection with Goldsmith's score.

In Turner/Rhino's North By Northwest the tacky hotel music - again by other composers - was inserted to no real purpose into Herrmann's score, which makes for a jarring listening experience.

On the other hand you have, say, Max Dougan where the source cues were written by the composer(s) and though they clearly are source cues they still fit into the general tone of the score, so they're not distracting.

If I could propose a general guideline: if the composer wrote the source, and if it has some connection with the rest of the score, then it usually works amid the dramatic cues. Otherwise, it belongs in an "appendix" at the end.

Also: Gojira is completely correct about Superman. The same might be said for the expanded Star Wars discs.

I've always liked albums with the score proper first followed by a section of true source and outtakes. With the liner notes then informing the collector where the source cues would appear within the score's chronological sequence, giving the listener the option to program them in.

But, this is a minor detail in lieu of getting all the cues.
The final presentation of music on the album shows how much the producer cares about the music itself, which I appreciate greatly.

Reminds me of a Somerset Maugham quote that I will now paraphrase: There are three vitally important rules to soundtrack CD sequencing - unfortunately nobody knows what they are.

_________________
Karl Morton IV

"Enjoy every sandwich."
-- Warren Zevon

Great question, Doug!

Like most collectors, I truly enjoy getting a complete score recording, source cues and all. That said, when it comes to either hearing the score in film sequence or presented in a better listening arrangement, I'd choose the latter of the two, with the source cues tacked on at the end. This is not to say that I wouldn't want to know what the music's film sequence is, as even if it's not balanced, flow wise, I can at least program the cues to be played in that order. So perhaps a possible solution is to list somewhere on the packaging the film sequence, or list it on your website or forum. Given an opportunity to hear the music more efficiently sequenced for a better listening experience should always win out, but I can also see providing, in some manner, for those who care for such things, an opportunity to know how it should sequenced. That would be a most welcomed additional provision.

Thanks for inquiring.

- Matt

It can't be generalized; it's a case by case question. Musical flow or dramatic/narrative continuity should take precedence over chronological order. If the source cues fit in nicely and/or add to the narrative flow of the music (e.g. The Lord of the Rings), they should be in sequence, but if they are there more for completenists sake or are a "separate" listening from the score, they should be moved to the end and out of the way (e.g. The Ghost and the Darkness).

My views:
Use your best judgement to determine whether the song or odd source cue is actually an integral part of the musical structure. I really like having the piano "source" version of the main theme from Bandolero! at the beginning of the program for said score, for example.

I would say that usually, songs or source cues not written by the composer should be placed at the end, *unless* the composer somehow integrates some of the musical material into the surrounding score proper (which would make it an "integral part of the musical structure" I suppose).

As for the order of regular score tracks, I *do* prefer them to be in story order. Usually this means film order, but oftentimes a director or music editor will screw around with the composer's music and put it in the film all chopped up and out of order. I think any albums should be in the original order that the composer wrote the cues to be in for the film.

If there's a case where you think there can be a superior listening experience that you've worked out for your own personal enjoyment, why not include it as a note, so people can make such an arrangement on their computer (or program a player)? You can even *omit* cues that you think aren't as needed that way, as well and putting them out of film order, and the complete and chronological guys can't complain.

On the flip side, if you decide to do an album that is not in film order (FSM occasionally used to), please indicate in the liner notes the proper arrangement of tracks into film order for those of us who prefer it that way. (Also, please avoid joining cues that come at different parts of the film.)

Same for the source cues, even if you do a chronological album which leaves them to the end (which is what I would usually prefer).

There's one exception where I think mixing in unrelated source cues resulted in a good album enjoyable straight through anyway: FSM's A Man Called Peter. And I never even saw the film.

I'm not saying I wouldn't have liked it even more if the source cues had been moved to the end; I'm just saying that I think it *worked* with the source cues mixed in.

Yavar